Workday Minnesota editor Barb Kucera interviewed Stern during his recent tour to promote his book, A Country That Works (Free Press, $24). Their half-hour discussion was videotaped for a future program of "Minnesota at Work," the weekly cable show produced by the University of Minnesota Labor Education Service.

Here is a transcript of the interview:

Q: In your book, you talk about the profound changes going on in the economy, about how we\'ve embarked on a third economic era here in the United States. Can you go into more detail on that?

Stern: "We\'ve only actually had three economic revolutions in the history of the world. The first was the agricultural. It took 3,000 years. The second was the industrial. It took 300 years. And this revolution, as we change from manufacturing to more service and retail and knowledge, what people like to say from 9 to 5 to 24/7, from national to international, is probably only going to take 30 years. No generation of people has ever witnessed so much change in a single lifetime."

Q: So what can unions do to help workers deal with these changes?"

Stern: "America needs a plan. We are no longer competing in a national economy but an international one, and we have no plan, whether it\'s health care where we put the cost of our health care on the price of the product, which other countries don\'t do, whether it\'s the fact that only one-third of American businesses that exist today will be economically viable in 25 years. And unions need a plan to deal with the fact that one out of every four workers will be contingent by the year 2010 and workers like my son, who is 20 years old, will have 9 to 12 jobs by the time they\'re 35. It\'s not a one-job-in-a-lifetime economy anymore. America and unions need a new plan."

Q: What are some of the highlights of your plan?

Stern: "First of all, for unions, I think we need to appreciate that American workers and American businesses are looking for organizations that can help them succeed, solve problems, not create them. And I think we need to look at what we (SEIU) have done here with Allina, with Kaiser, about building new strategic alliances, partnerships, relationships that add value to our employers. Two is we have a health care system that\'s a relic of the industrial economy and in the private sector we have a pension system that\'s a relic of the industrial economy, because they are built on an employer platform. And employers and employees are separating and they\'re on their way to getting a divorce, so we need to solve the same problems, but solve them in a 2006 way, not a 1935 New Deal way."

Q: The middle class is getting squeezed – you lay this out in detail in your book. How can we work with employers in the way you\'re talking about when they are pushing this agenda of squeezing the middle class?

Stern: "I think the economy has a lot to do with what\'s going on and clearly employers can help it or hurt it and certainly unions can help it or hurt it as well. So first you have to understand what the problem is. It\'s a very different economy. Secondly, you do have to understand what\'s happening to Americans. Seven out of 10 middle income Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. We had negative savings for the first time since the Great Depression. For the fifth straight year in a row, American workers didn\'t get a raise. Less people have health care. More women went bankrupt than graduated college last year. That\'s not the America we want or need. And we need a new agenda. And business has to change, the government has to change, but unions have to change as well."

Q: Talk about going to China, meeting with working people there, how did that shape your viewpoint on economic change?

Stern: "I think it\'s kind of odd that the first unionized Wal-Mart I ever went to is now in Quanzhou, China. You\'re seeing a very changing China. America has its first real economic competitor. Half of the concrete that\'s going to be poured in the world this year will be poured in China. Ninety percent of all the scientists and engineers will come from the Asia-Pacific region by 2010. We have a very dynamic economy that\'s growing every day. They have a plan for their kids, for their country. We don\'t. I was just amazed – a China where they\'re going to build 110 hotels in Beijing for the 2010 Olympics. This is a profoundly competitive world and we have a new competitor. Team USA has to get on the field with a new plan."

Q: How does that jibe with international solidarity among workers?

Stern: "First of all, companies went global, trade went global, finance went global, capital went global -- how in the world can unions stay local? So that\'s not going to work. And \'Workers of the world unite\' used to be a slogan – but it has to be a way of life. The workers who wake up every day in the United States at Wal-Mart have interests similar to the ones in China or South Korea or Brazil. So we need to have people who work for the same employers try to raise their wages and benefits up. At the same time we have to be good Americans and take care of American jobs. It doesn\'t make sense that we can\'t fix our battleships with steel made in this country. America can do both. We can build the labor movement and raise everyone up, but we also can take care of our country as well."

Q: How is SEIU putting some of these ideas into practice?

Stern: "We now have people working all over the world. We\'re running the largest organizing drive in the history of Australia for cleaners and security officers. We just helped security officers win a strike in Indonesia. We just conducted with Lech Walesa\'s union Solidarnosc in Poland a one-week organizing drive. We are trying to work with unions that work for the same employers that we do and show you can build global solidarity and the beginnings of building global unions."

Q: Health care – in the book you say there needs to be a plan, but you don\'t get into any specifics. What would be a plan that you would support?

Stern: "The ingredients are fairly clear. Everybody needs access to quality, affordable health care. We need to have a choice of doctors, we need to have electronic medical records, we need to invest in prevention and wellness and everybody needs access to the greatest technology, the ability to pay for the drugs that we\'re beginning to develop. There are lots of ways to do it. It doesn\'t have to be Canadian or Scandinavian. We\'re going to have an American plan. The plan for Congress and the president and millions of federal workers – maybe we should look at that plan. Maybe we should look at the VA or we should look at Kaiser or we should look at what every other industrialized nation in the world has done. It\'s not all been single payer. America just needs its own plan."

Q: What kind of steps are SEIU and Change to Win taking on health care?

Stern: One is Joe Hanson, president of the UFCW, is on the citizen\'s commission that just came out with its report on universal health care. I wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal and a letter to all Fortune 500 CEOs talking about them needing to step out and call for an end to the employer-based health care system. We are working at every single level. We don\'t need incremental change. We need fundamental change. People are dying, they\'re going bankrupt, because this health care system isn\'t working."

Q: How about health care workers themselves?

Stern: "Our health care workers are passionate about changing the health care system because they see it everyday at the bedside. What are the effects of a health care system where you don\'t have enough nurses in your hospital? What\'s the effect of being in a nursing home and not having the tools and supplies and training you need to do your job? What does it mean when we don\'t have enough home care that\'s been developed so people aren\'t able to stay in their homes and they have to go into nursing homes? So they are passionate advocates for a new system where everyone\'s covered, but where there\'s also quality provided at the bedside and that means change."

Q: Why write a book?

Stern: "Because I love the country and I think America\'s a gift. Its greatest gift is that people came from all over the world. All they expected to do was work hard. What they really wanted, though, was for their kids to do better than they did. That\'s always been the American dream. And now 52 percent of parents say their kids are going to do worse than they are, and as I write about in the book, the facts are proving them out. That\'s not the America we want or need. We need a plan to put the country back on track. We need to be Team USA. We need to come together as Americans and make this a country that works."

Q: Many observers characterized the split in the AFL-CIO as a debate between putting union resources into organizing or politics. As a strong proponent of union organizing, are there also political aspects to what you talk about in this book?

Stern: "Absolutely. Leadership matters, if it\'s in a company, a country or a union. We felt in the AFL-CIO we were walking down a road and could see where it ends. We were getting smaller, not stronger. The signposts were clear – productivity up – wages, down. Profits up, health care and retirement down. The beginning of a change process is when you\'re walking down a road and you know where it\'s ending, you get off the road and walk in a new direction where at least there\'s hope. Politics becomes important. But it means having an independent view about politics. We\'re not lapdogs for any political party. We\'re watchdogs for our members. And so we\'re trying to build a new kind of politics about members\' issues and interests – things like health care, things like pension, things like America having a plan. We\'re incredibly active in this election, more so than any other off-year election, for candidates who we think want to build an America that works for everybody."

Q: It\'s been more than a year since the formation of the Change to Win federation. How would you score how the federation is doing?

Stern: "It took a lot to leave and build something new. That\'s not completed. It took a while to get the staff in place. That\'s now done. We\'ve now allocated the resources as we said we should more toward growth, developed a new kind of independent politics, helped make a campaign like \'Hotel Workers Rising\' more successful. Now comes the next phase, which is really building new campaigns, whether it\'s around ports or around retail employers, to really create the kind of growth that we\'re looking for long-term and I think we\'re going to begin to do that."

Q: Talk a little more about those campaigns.

Stern: "Well, if you look at the ports in America, here\'s a perfect example where everyone can win. We have the port of Long Beach. It can\'t expand anymore because of environmental pollution, environmentalists are going crazy legitimately. Shippers are worried because the trucks are backed up because all of a sudden they\'re all independent contractors. They make 8 or 9 dollars an hour. They can\'t afford to buy a new truck. We\'ve created a solution where there\'s a way to pay some fees from the shippers that will allow creation of employer, that will allow people to be employees. That will allow them to get wage increases and health care, which then provide better equipment which will lower the pollution. And we have a win-win situation for everyone. But those employees at the ports are all independent drivers and making half the wages that they would have made 25 years ago. And that\'s what\'s wrong with America."

Q: How do you describe your relationship right now with the AFL-CIO?

Stern: "I think we work together, which we should, on things that make sense like politics, and we pursue our own agenda on things where we have differences of opinion. But the clear thing is we\'re not raiding each other. We\'re not reorganizing the labor movement by which initials our members are in. We\'re trying to build something new and stronger and I think that is healthy."

Q: The overriding issue for the country right now is clearly the war in Iraq. Why aren\'t unions mobilizing around this issue?

Stern: "I think that\'s really a good question. Our union went through a very elaborate process of trying to decide what would be the principles where a union would support its country going to war or not, and we felt this war did not meet those principles. And we took a position that we don\'t think it\'s right to rush to war without a plan. To make peace, we shouldn\'t have done it alone and unilaterally. This should be a problem that the world tried to solve. And so I think, unfortunately, we\'ve been proven right. Too many people have died, both U.S. soldiers and innocent Iraqi family members. I think we should speak out more and I don\'t think we\'ve been the voice we should be. I think it\'s just so clear now how wrong it is. Our voices should be part of it. But we should have spoken out earlier."

Q: Billions are being spent on this war .. . .

Stern: "Yes. On the other hand, I do think a country should spend whatever it takes to keep themselves safe. That\'s why these decisions become so important. It\'s worth every cent we have to stop Osama bin Laden. It\'s not worth the kind of money we have to do what we\'re doing in Iraq. You have to make decisions and money is a huge factor. But also the security of the country is a factor as well."

Q: How\'s the picture here in Minnesota for SEIU?

Stern: "Purple has become the color of Minnesota, not just for the Vikings but for SEIU. We\'ve seen union leaders in this state really grow and blossom to take on new partnerships with Allina, to organize new groups of workers like security officers and child care workers. And now we are so intimately and effectively involved in the political elections, with our members, our heroes, out off their jobs, talking to members, giving them the information. So I am incredibly proud of purple SEIU Minnesota."

Q: You are still demonized by a lot of people because of the split that occurred in the AFL-CIO. Why do you think people are making you a focal point?

Stern: "I write in my book about what I call idea assassins, people who don\'t like new ideas to get into the conversation because it\'s threatening to the status quo. Clearly, I think the status quo needs to be changed. If we can\'t have a conversation, we\'re never going to solve the problems."

Q: Neoliberalism, multinationals – it\'s hard to reconcile these with the Team America you\'re talking about. Do you think the labor movement will ever go anywhere unless we challenge this corporate mentality?

Stern: "We live in a world more and more where companies, not countries, are making the rules of the global economy. Of the 100 largest economic entities in the world, 51 are companies and only 49 are countries. Wal-Mart had a greater GDP than Venezuela, Singapore or Ireland. And we see companies putting pressure on countries to change their policies. And many of them are American companies, although more and more they\'re becoming global, and worship no god but the almighty dollar and salute no flag but their own corporate logos. So I think it\'s time for progressive governments, for NGOs, for unions, for human rights advocates to build a new set of principles. We saw what the Sullivan Principles did to change South Africa. It allowed all of us to work from our own perspective and end apartheid. I think it\'s time to tame this market global capitalism by everyone coming together, creating a new set of principles that are about health and wealth and environment and caring for other people and respecting human rights. We can change the 100 largest corporations in the world, we can change the world."

Q: Do you think we can get there without class consciousness? How do you instill in people to want to step beyond their own immediate needs?

Stern: "I think there\'s a lesson to be learned in what happened in the last anti-war movement, where we burned American flags, versus the immigration march where we waved American flags. I think people responded differently to those. I don\'t think Americans really think about class in traditional terms. They think about inequality. They think about their lives. But people love this country, and I don\'t think we as progressives or labor people, speak to people\'s hopes and aspirations. We\'re critics at times. Now we have all the answers to all the problems. Americans are hopeful. No matter how bad things are, they believe things can get better and we need to speak to their aspirations and I think when we do, people respond."

Q: Do you think the labor movement can succeed the way it needs to in organizing without promoting a vision for a better America?

Stern: "Not unless people see unions speaking for everyone, not just their own members. I think most people want organizations that solve problems, not create them, because they have enough problems at their home and their family and their job. I think they want organizations that seem like they have a plan and are smart and strategic, big enough to actually be successful. I think unions are going to have to fundamentally change how they think about what their role is in the 21st century. That\'s why we talked about restructuring, that\'s why we talked about building different kinds of relationships, and political organizations. We can be the way that Americans share in the wealth of a booming economy, if we get stronger, not smaller."